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9:35 pm
Quote"So I doubt the transfer is significant in most real-world cases, but it's a very informative study for many reasons…one being that it demonstrates that glycogen depletion is not the limiting factor in running (or, most likely, other types of exercise)."
The transfer might be much more significant in higher intensity exercise (e.g. lifting) under anaerobic conditions.
I have other studies showing glycogen depletion is shifted towards fast twitch fibers during higher intensities. In any case, the depletion seems never more then ~1/3 of total glycogen stores in the worked muscles in all studies I have seen. So, maybe this "remaining glycogen storages just 2/3 wall" does indeed represent a limiting factor in (anaerobic) exercise.
Anecdotally, me and many others reported "loosing reps" from a given weightexercise(to failure) while on very low carb.
Most of the weightlifting world does agree that regular "carb ups" are required for lifting performance, especially while low carbing.
For me, a PHD with ~100g of safe carbs/day is enough to feel and perform well without the need of carb-induced comas once or twice per week.
Mmh..., somehow my posts here always wander off-topic, sorry for that!
10:07 pm
Beautifully written! You certainly are a natural and gifted writer. I've always suspected that specific cravings are the body's wisdom to goad you to seek out missing nutrients.
3:48 am
great write up. i think from personal experience the following is a good way to cut back on bodyfat:
very low carb for a short period: i did atkins induction level so 20g carbs but i kept functional paleo in mind with my food choices.
after that full paleo (plus dairy if you tolerate) with lots of veg and some fruit (keep that low if fat loss is goal but no need to go mental with it)
this has twice this year enabled me to lose considerable fat mass while continuing to improve body composition and weights progression.
my wife is starting on this now and lost the following:
week one, 3 pounds
week two, one pound (time of month)
week three, 6 pounds!
i think the difference between women and men is quite significant though, i got 10 pounds in my first two weeks on both times this year (but i train 3 times a week, my wife has just started training properly this week).
longterm i think functional paleo is where i will live diet-wise. right now i'm focussing on muscle gain/retention and fat loss so not cheating at all.
my future definitely involves dark chocolate though 😀
6:41 pm
February 22, 2010
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Jacquie:
I'm sure it's the case that most of the "formerly obese" were on Weight Watchers or some other standard diet plan.
Eating low-carb paleo certainly helps -- but there is clear evidence that some people have permanently altered metabolisms that simply can't tolerate carbs like they did before. Jack Kruse can probably talk about the role of leptin and hypocretin neurons...I don't want to get into that because there is still a lot of argument about exactly what leads to this state and how (or if) it can be recovered from. However, there are a few suggestive leads which I'll be investigating and reporting on once the series gets to the point of offering proposed solutions.
Meanwhile, any intense exercise that depletes glycogen will definitely help you, as seen in my article which Paul pointed out. You don't have to exercise for long durations, and lifting heavy things is a great glycogen depleter: pushups (wall pushups or knee pushups if you can't do normal ones) are great, as are air squats...anything that makes you breathe hard will do.
Jamie:
Great to hear from you! I was disappointed we didn't have any time to converse at AHS...too much to do, too little time.
Anyway, your suggestions are good. I'm looking into MCTs right now...the chemistry seems sound, because the implication is that transport is the biggest bottleneck (though function in general is also impaired). And we know about the beneficial effect of glycogen-depleting exercise on met flex and IR...
If you have any other ideas or suggestions, leave a comment or email me directly (through the "Contact" link)...of course I'll acknowledge and plug all contributions. (This holds true for everyone, btw, not just Jamie.)
Thanks for stopping by! I've been plugging your site for a while, and am glad to see you getting recognized for it.
Franco:
No, please post links to references if you have them. It's always been an article of faith that glycogen can't move out of muscles, only in...so if it can be transferred, even if only at a slow rate and under certain limited circumstances, that has direct relevance to what we're talking about.
Aaron:
Thank you! I work hard on these articles, and I appreciate it when people notice.
As far as cravings (note: cravings for actual food, not Oreos), particularly for random vegetables, I think you're right. Why would I suddenly crave seaweed salads and sushi handrolls? Answer: I need iodine. And so on.
eddie:
I think you're right: many people notice that they can dial their bodyweight by altering carb intake and nothing else. I actually get too skinny on VLC unless I force myself to drink protein/heavy cream shakes and other artificial calorie bombs.
Functional paleo is a good place to be...it lets us worry less about doubtful anthropology and more about biochemistry.
Rafael:
Thank you!
JS
9:12 pm
JS,
I have the most relevant of the glycogen-depletion studies saved on my pc. Don't want to spend again the time to search the net for days. I can send you some by mail if you want. Just tell me.
The full text of the one I quoted above, by the way shows that the amount of depletion from the forearm is not so trival like the abstract implies. And that's the depletion happens after the exercise isn't so important in my view. Some studies anyway show that depletion continues after exercise in the worked muscles, especially with higher intensities (sprinting/lifting).
5:52 am
[...] posts: JS Stanton of gnolls.org has been doing a great series on satiety, hunger, and obesity. Part IV went up this week. JS points out that the obese have damaged mitochondria and reduced ability to [...]
9:25 pm
February 22, 2010
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Franco:
Yes, please email them to me! You should have my email address now.
JS
9:38 pm
June 20, 2011
OfflineHey JS,
There's been a lot of dissention among the ranks; and it's making it hard to make clear what is and is not bad based on *one* person's interpreation of the science. Recently Stephan has been making some headways into this, as long as some others. One of the most disconcerting posts was this one: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/seed-oils-and-body-fatness-problematic.html
I wonder what your take on it is?
1:53 pm
February 22, 2010
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Chris:
I'm puzzled at the post you reference for several reasons, not the least of which is that he seems to be directly confronting Paul Jaminet's recent post "Low-Carb High-Fat Diets and the Thyroid", which referenced Stephan's earlier work, and which I find to be very well reasoned.
Note that Paul's post references only human studies, which I find much more convincing than rodent studies, especially mouse studies — since mice are herbivores, any study that feeds fat to mice (especially animal fat) isn't going to tell you much.
(Rat studies are more relevant, since rats are at least omnivores — although since seeds and grains are a significant part of their diet, they are likely to have better adaptation to grains and grain products than humans. Also consider the relative time and reproductive capacity of rat vs. human generations, and the consequent speed of environmental adaptation, specifically to agricultural diets.)
Also note that Stephan has taken down two of his old posts, "Omega-6 Linoleic Acid Suppresses Thyroid Signaling" as well as "Vegetable Oil and Weight Gain". I recommend saving a copy of each out of Google's cache while they're still there, so you can see for yourself how his thinking on the matter has changed, and whether you find the change convincing.
My take on that post: Stephan's conclusion seems to state that there is still a strong correlation between n-6 intake and obesity — but he believes it's purely due to n-6 intake increasing the reward value of modern foods. First, see my note above about mouse studies. Most importantly, given that high n-6 intake has known metabolic effects that have nothing to do with dopamine signaling pathways, such as disrupting liver function (e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1797607/), I don't find the conclusion convincing.
Future articles in this series will address the role of food reward in hunger signaling.
JS
2:28 pm
[...] is a fact that they do, but people disagree on the reason why.[Update 22/8: I was notified of a great article on the causes of hunger and weight gain over at gnolls.org, I highly recommend that you read [...]
5:55 pm
June 20, 2011
OfflineThanks for opting in JS. I left my personal belief out of it; but you've mimicked and as always, added more to my thought process than what I originally had.
I whole-heartedly agree that I had trouble agreeing with the conclusions since most of the studies were about rodents; I'll also take a more detailed look at Stephan's original posts.
Thanks again for your input!
2:03 pm
[...] a great series on satiety, hunger, and obesity. Part IV went up this week. JS points out that the obese [...]
3:51 am
JS
As someone who has read everything you've written herein, plus the Gnoll Credo, plus the books you've recommended, and a considerable number of the papers, I must again add my voice to the choir of appreciation for what you've done here! This piece is another wonder of clarity and concision, despite its length (which isn't much, actually, considering the volume of information it contains).
A shout-out to the commenters who have contributed, too.
I'm in the process of preparing a series of small nutrition talks to give at the gym where I work and I'm basically going to paraphrase your entire blog! (with due attributions, of course)
Thanks again for the fine work.
Juan
2:19 pm
February 22, 2010
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Chris:
Sure! I'll be addressing reward more directly as the series continues.
Juan:
This post was an ordeal to write, so I'm glad you find it useful...and I'm honored that you find my work to be a credible source of information. I only request that if you're going to paraphrase me, that you plug me at some point, too 🙂
Paul:
You're welcome!
JS
10:44 am
Great series. I'm excited to see what's next - while I've never been obese, I was "skinny fat" and have a surprisingly high body fat %, although eating paleo and doing lots of strength training is bringing it down. I imagine I have trouble using my fat for energy too, so I'm curious about what you'll discuss!
3:38 am
February 22, 2010
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Alta:
Welcome! There are a lot of skinny people who are diabetic or pre-diabetic, and undiagnosed...and they tend to be "skinny-fat" because of the mitochondrial dysfunction.
Congratulations on your progress!
JS
11:26 pm
[...] When Satiety Fails: Why Are We Hungry? Part IV September 8, 2011By: J. Stanton Read the Full Post at: GNOLLS.ORG [...]
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