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7:23 am
Quote@eddie
well im the first to admit ive been wrong if someone teaches me something new. the 30g protein thing is just the way i learned it and tbh it doesnt seem right to me either i just didnt find any good sources to prove its wrongand i know plenty of people including doctors who are convinced its true and who teach it that way.it would be appreciated if you could hand me a few sources.
as for the ethical reasons...as i wrote above im struggling with that too, maybe i dont know enough.thats the problem with diets too, there are doctors and researchers for every diet out there confirming its the most healthiest. how should us normal non PhD people choose which professor to believe, after all they all know more about the subject than i do.
just watched the ted talk 'debunking the paleo diet' with christina warinner, totally convinced me:D
and what about those arguments that less people would suffer from hunger if we just gave them the grains instead of feeding animals with it so we can eat meat?
however, you made some good points.
i hope noone gets offended by my questions as im not trying to prove someone wrong or to belittle someones way of life im trying to learn something. but the more i read about nutrition the less i know it seems.and the less i know who to trust.
for example if u search pubmed there are much more studies showing that a vegan lifestyle is much healthier and that even small amounts of red meat increase risk of getting diabetes etc than there are studies showing positive effects of paleo. how come this doesnt count for anything for some people? i suspect that theres too much confirmation bias out there and that most people just believe what they want to believe, after all thats the easiest way.
7:35 am
@ JS
thanks for your reply.
of course i have aleady thought about your points a lot,
and i agree its way too simple and naive to just say eating animals is bad, agriculture is good. 'meat eating done right' i tend to agree is ok, unfortunately theres nothing right with meat eating how its done in the world today, but i guess we can all agree on that.
thanks for the interesting links,
all the best
12:00 pm
February 22, 2010
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AJ:
At this point it's important to distinguish grain-fed beef from grass-fed beef.
Cattle didn't evolve to eat grains any more than we did: the reason cattle are fed grains is because it makes them fat more quickly than anything else. In fact, corn-fed beef used to be a luxury item, because until the massive US government subsidies for corn, soy, and wheat started in the 1970s, it cost a lot more to feed corn to cattle than it did to feed them on pasture!
The reason we have feedlots is because of massive subsidies for chemical-based monocropping of GMO corn and soybeans. In fact, we have so much surplus corn because of these programs that we're forced to feed it to cars at a net energy loss! ("Biofuels", meaning ethanol from corn.) And since the surplus of these "heart-healthy whole grains" is so monumental, is it a surprise that official government policy encourages their consumption?
As I've said many times before: industrial agriculture is a health, environmental, and ethical disaster no matter whether we feed the results to cattle or to people.
JS
4:53 am
@ JS
thanks for your reply once again.
of course one has to distinguish grass-fed and grain-fed, i was just trying to point out that theres everything wrong with meat eating how its done today.apparrently agriculture isnt any better.its too easy to fall for someones propaganda if you dont know enough yourself, be it vegetarians or meat industry (which is,im sure we agree on this one, just as bad).
still, how would you explain the fact that there are much more studies out there claiming superior health benefits from vegan/vegetarian diets, and that even small amounts of red meat increases the risk for diabetes etc etc?to me the few studies i read seemed legit.
P.S. just ordered your book, looking forward to reading it and hopefully gaining some new insights.after reading many articles here it becomes apparrent that you really know a thing or two about nutrition,quite impressive, keep up the good work;D
6:55 am
September 24, 2012
Offline@AJ, And few of those studies are clinical trials. Most are observational, which tells you nothing about cause and effect, it just tells you there's some sort of link between the two variables.
Jen
"Often we forget . . . the sky reaches to the ground . . . with each step . . . we fly." ~We Fly, The House Jacks
9:14 am
I suspected as much. i have to admit im not the most qualified person to assess the quality of scientific research thats why i ask.
but then again, are there 'better' studies out there regarding paleo (and if yes could you point me in the right direction)? what about those few clinical trials youre talking about, and arent observations better than nothing?
regards
1:46 pm
I like how this website completely disregards the fact that raw fruits and vegetables contain their own enzymes in order to break down which is why the body doesn't need to produce all of its own. Do research on both sides of the argument before publishing something.
1:56 pm
June 5, 2011
Offline
What's in it for the fruit or the veggie, then?
Living in the Ice Age
http://livingintheiceage.pjgh.co.uk
2:12 am
Read every. last. comment. Really enjoyed your article! Found it because I heard the "meat rots in your stomach for 6 weeks" from a fellow partygoer. Having never heard it before, I had no response, but my friend (hostess) soaked it right up. I would like to link her to your article.
12:29 am
February 22, 2010
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AJ:
First, those studies are population studies, not controlled studies.
Second, they don't compare vegetarianism to paleo: they compare it to the SAD (Standard American Diet). And as I've discussed at length in this article (which I hope you already read), the differences between the average vegetarian's diet and the SAD are not limited to consuming less meat. Quote: "Meat-eating ‘vegetarians’ are consuming much less meat, beer, and french fries—and are consuming much more fruit, vegetables, and fish."
I don't think anyone will dispute that replacing beer and french fries with fruit, vegetables, and fish is a health benefit. (Note that french fries are almost always eaten in fast food restaurants, so 'vegetarians' are also eating out less and cooking their own food more...another healthy dietary pattern. Most importantly, note that paleo recommends the same dietary substitutions!)
Third, paleo hasn't been around for very long, so there aren't very many studies on it yet...though the few controlled studies that exist all find it superior to even the much-vaunted "Mediterranean" diet. You can find some of them in this list.
Thank you for ordering a copy of The Gnoll Credo! Feel free to share your thoughts in the forums when you're done.
Hailey:
"raw fruits and vegetables contain their own enzymes in order to break down which is why the body doesn't need to produce all of its own."
No, they don't. Think about it for a moment: if they did, they'd digest themselves before we could eat them!
Fruits are primarily composed of sugars (which we can digest with our own enzymes), starches (most of which we digest with our own enzymes), and various forms of soluble and insoluble fiber (which are digested by our gut bacteria -- they 'rot' in our colon).
In contrast, meat is composed of proteins (digested by our own enzymes) and fats (also digested by our own enzymes).
Some fruits do contain enzymes that help digest meat proteins. 'Meat tenderizer' is just papain, found in papayas, and pineapples contain bromelain, another protein-digesting enzyme. However, the idea that fruits magically digest themselves (while meat somehow does not) is fruitarian propaganda with no basis in reality.
Paul:
In theory, we poop out the seeds in a nice little pile of fertilizer. In reality, they've either been bred to be seedless, or the seeds end up in the trash.
JA:
Thank you for taking the time to read my responses to the comments! And yes, please feel free to send this article to anyone exposed to that silly myth.
JS
4:51 am
AJ i did not mean it to come across as i'd taken offence, the 30g protein thing i also believed for quite some time.
JS and rest: i learned of this through the starting strength forums and a few other places. it all began through the history of body building splitting into strength training and non functional posing training.
cannot find article now sadly, but it was very thorough and had links to data backing it up (most of which i read). also chaos and pain has noted bits and pieces of it too.
will link the video from biolayne later when i get home
5:46 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2003/apr/21/usnews.food
here is the WHO article in the Guardian
11:58 am
as promised here is the protein video
that's it for today i promise!
2:42 am
also a problem with this situation is the amount of financial backing the views of coventional wisdom (and making a massive profit)
as i'm uk based i'll share this list (obtained from here http://www.drbriffa.com/2013/04/19/bbc-journalist-appears-disinterested-in-the-science-on-low-carbohydrate-eating/ in the comments section)
"DUK The diabetes charity.
Abbott Bayer Boehringer Ingelheim Bristol Myers Squibb Bupa Bunzl Everyclick First Capital Connect Flora pro.activ Kodak Lilly Lloyds Pharmacy Menarini Merck Serono Morphy Richards Merck Sharp & Dohme Limited Novartis Novo Nordisk Nursing Times PAL Technologies Ltd Pfizer Rowlands Pharmacies Sanofi-aventis SplendaTakeda Tesco Diets
HEART UK -The Nation’s Cholesterol Charity
Abbott Healthcare Alpro UK AstraZeneca BHR Pharma Cambridge Weight Plan Cereal Partners UK (Sh Wheat) Food & Drink Federation Fresenius Medical Care (UK) Limited Genzyme Therapeutics Hovis Kellogg’s (Optivita) Kowa Pharmaceutical Europe Co Limited L.IN.C Medical Systems Limited Merck Sharpe & Dhome PlanMyFood Pfizer Premier Foods Progenika Biopharma s.a. Roche Products Limited Unilever (Flora) Welch’s (Purple Grape Juice)
The British Nutrition Foundation
However, the organisation’s 39 members, which contribute to its funding, include – beside the Government, the EU – Cadbury, Kellogg’s, Northern Foods, McDonald’s, PizzaExpress, the main supermarket chains except Tesco, and producer bodies such as the Potato Council. The chairman of its board of trustees, Paul Hebblethwaite, is also chairman of the Biscuit, Cake, Chocolate and Confectionery Trade Association.
The European Food Information Council
Current EUFIC members are: AB Sugar, Ajinomoto Sweeteners Europe, Bunge, Cargill, Cereal Partners, Coca-Cola, Danone, DSM Nutritional Products Europe Ltd., Ferrero, Kraft Foods, Mars, McDonald’s, Nestlé, PepsiCo, Pfizer Animal Health, Südzucker, and Unilever.
The British Heart Foundation
Unilever Flora margarine."
now it would be nice if all these organisations were on your side...but sadly i doubt they are
i remember when the WHO were going to come out and make a public statement about sugar being deleterious for human health and the american sugar association (i think) sent a congressman(!!) to threaten them with a funds cut of 1 billion dollars(!!!) if they went ahead with it.
these organisations are probably working on a "little evil to achieve a lot of good" philosophy, but it still shows the problems they do face
2:58 pm
I am not a believer of the meat theory, at all. I have eaten meat my whole life up until 3 years ago before I became a vegan. I even followed the Atkins' Diet for 10 of those years, and it made me so sick.
My thyroid went out of whack. I had a severe hormonal imbalance (let's not forget, when you eat meat, you are ingesting the ground up hormones of these poor animals too), my gallbladder went out, and thank God, through a series of liver cleanses and a strict vegan diet, I was able to save it and correct it, I was constipated with hemorrhoids all the time. I felt sick and lethargic all the time, my hair was falling out in clumps, and yes, I was low on B-12 and Vitamin D, I am living proof that meat eaters can have a B-12 deficiency too, my cholesterol was high, and it has dropped over a 100 points since becoming a vegan, I was 100lbs overweight, which I have since lost when becoming a vegan, I was plagued with constant gas and digestive issues, like heartburn too, and I had acne, which is now completely gone.
I became a vegan for health reasons, and it has cured me from the inside out. Didn't you watch "Forks Over Knives" or the "China Study?" There is just as much validity and claim in veganism as you are trying to validate with the Paleo diet.
I don't believe for a minute that grains and beans cause Ulcerative Colitis or Colon issues. I believe anti-biotics and a diet of 36 vaccinations given to children today cause those things along with the consumption of dairy.
People who stop all dairy, even if they still eat small quantities of meat, recover most of their health, but yet, that doesn't solve the issues of high cholesterol.
There are valid arguments on both sides,and I have lived on both sides, and I pick veganism over meat any day.
6:39 am
nicole your post is merely highlighting that you've not read the other comments.
also google denise minger and forks over knives
6:39 am
nicole your post is merely highlighting that you've not read the other comments.
also google denise minger and forks over knives
4:03 am
J. Stanton, brilliant work. I owe you a steak dinner, grass fed of course, when I meet you. We got a meat meet date. A reminder, there is a fix for World Hunger...
1:31 am
February 22, 2010
Offline
eddie:
Thank you for the links! It's clear that in the UK, just as in the US, dietary and medical advice is being dispensed by entities controlled by the same corporations whose food causes our ill health, and who profit from our ill health.
Nicole:
I wouldn't dream of contradicting your own experience. However, I note a few things:
1. Paleo is not the same as Atkins.
2. If you're B12 deficient on a diet with plenty of meat, you most likely have the genetic defect that prevents you from absorbing it, and require B12 shots in order to not develop pernicious anemia.
3. You're the first example of anyone I've heard who suffered those symptoms and was "cured" by going vegan, instead of the other way around. You may have an undiagnosed food intolerance, e.g. dairy or eggs.
4. Or, you might be BSing. It really sounds like you simply cut-and-pasted a typical Paleo testimonial and substituted "vegan" for it.
5. Denise Minger conclusively debunked both The China Study and Forks Over Knives here.
6. Apparently you didn't read the comments before posting your epistle, because you would have seen my warning in boldface: "The purpose of this article is to address one very specific topic: the claim that “meat rots in your colon”. Making the general case for veg*anism vs. omnivory is not only a non sequitur, it's beyond the scope of one article — and most certainly beyond the scope of a comment." Apparently going vegan has not improved your reading comprehension!
(Yes, I'm becoming shorter with those who feel the need to spout off without reading the existing comments first.)
Andre:
The population of Ethiopia has doubled since Live Aid. (And it's still primarily desert.) It shouldn't be surprising that people are still starving there.
JS
11:02 pm
There are not enough natural enzymes in our bodies to break down such things. That's why you get tired and feel like shit after eating a big steak.
Now after eating a big salad that is made properly so that it moves through the system and cleans everything out on the way, you feel light, energetic and quite happy. The next thing that happens is you shit it out in the morning the next day. If you knew anything about proper nutrition and the art of cleaning your body of all of its worms, gunk, and muck, then you wouldn't be posting some article about how the body digests.
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