4:23 pm
February 22, 2010
C-Dan:
"What qualifies us for eating animals?"
What qualifies a wolf, raven, hyena, cougar, raccoon, tuna, lion, or any other animal to eat other animals? Because that's what they do. Each has a long evolutionary history of eating animals as part or all of its diet, and each is well-adapted to do so in its own way.
Similarly, eating animals is what humans do -- and we are well-adapted to do so in our own way. Instead of using fangs and claws, we have a multi-million year history of making stone tools in order to eat animals. That history shaped us into what we are today: intelligent, opportunistic omnivores.
I absolutely agree that we need to be careful not to overexploit the Earth: as I've said before, seven billion people would be far too many even if we all ate nothing but tofu. But I see no need to discard what humans are in order to achieve that restraint. (And such efforts are doomed anyway: over 2/3 of US 'vegetarians' admit to eating meat.)
"I can tell you about studies which show vegans and vegetarians have always had a better IQ than their non-vegan counterparts."
Really? Citations, please.
JS
12:09 am
you a yankee? sounds so!because thats the only race that cannot decode the basic code of life,or what life is,but keeps making scientific farts about having known everything.the catch,my man,is not whether meat rots or not,rather how meat digests meat!it is no less fascinating as the fact that meat eaters and non meat eaters have vrey different perceptions.have you any idea why meat is not on the exact good books of the spiritual guys?you wont know,because half of your population thinks NASA is the best thing to happen to mankind. :} update your reads.not why meat is,but how meat is.scince is,about why, and not how.regards
11:34 am
February 22, 2010
indrajit:
"you a yankee? sounds so!because thats the only race that cannot decode the basic code of life,or what life is"
I'm proud that I don't think I know everything! The evidence is quite clear: those who think they do know everything are proven wrong, nearly every day, by new discoveries.
JS
4:14 am
Would you or anyone please compare the life span of meat-eating persons
and persons who almost do not eat meat?
8:30 am
Wonderful article! Half way throught the comments which are always informative. This is the kind of writing I enjoy and find fascinating - thank you.
2:01 pm
February 22, 2010
jo3hn:
The China Study (not the fraudulent popular misrepresentation of it, but the actual, original data from China) shows a significant positive effect of animal protein consumption on heart disease and lifespan in general. (Analysis here, extremely exhaustive analysis here.)
The usual problem with comparing the two is that most vegetarians are doing their best to eat healthy, and most meat-eaters aren't: see the statistics at the beginning of this article for some comparisons between what vegetarians eat and what meat-eaters eat. This is known as the Boy Scout effect. For instance, Seventh Day Adventists are often held up as a positive example of long-lived vegetarians...but they don't smoke or drink alcohol, coffee, or tea, either.
Furthermore, as the paper I cited notes, two-thirds of self-reported "vegetarians" in the USA still eat meat! So most "vegetarians" are gaining the benefits of their attempts to eat a healthy diet -- while still enjoying the nutritional benefits of meat-eating.
To get an honest comparison, you'd have to compare two groups equally committed to their own health: for instance, a group of Ornish dieters vs. a group of Paleo dieters. Then you'd have to compare compliance over time as well as outcomes for those who remained compliant. And, sadly, neither diet has been around long enough to allow any meaningful comparisons.
That being said, even given the Boy Scout effect and the fact that most "vegetarians" are still gaining the nutritional benefits of eating meat, the positive association of self-reported "vegetarianism" in the USA is extremely weak: 0.95 for all-cause mortality in this aggregation of studies (Table 3). Interestingly, there is no association at all for ages < 65 and >= 80: only the age group 65-79 showed any mortality difference (Table 5). And veganism had no protective effect at all (Table 7)!
Pauline:
This is one of my most popular articles, for good reason -- it's a remarkably durable myth. I'm glad you find it informative!
JS
9:18 pm
Thanks from another former vegetarian. Wonderful post, wonderful responses to the many comments. How do you find the time?!
Thanks for pointing out the ills of industrial agriculture and overpopulation, and the need to educate and empower women, who can then exercise some control over their fertility. (And for remembering that men are part of the equation, too.)
One of my favorite lines: "...all anyone has to do is watch a few Youtube videos of starving wildebeest or Cape buffalo being eaten alive by lions, hyenas, and wild dogs to realize that being fed for your whole life, protected from predators your whole life, and then killed instantly by being shot in the head maybe isn't so inhumane after all."
I raise chickens for eggs, though we have killed a few to eat as well. We've also put a few injured or sick ones out of their misery and buried them in the garden or left them in the woods for other critters to eat. Harvesting is very, very difficult for us to do, because we get attached to our animals and don't like to take their lives. But we feel as meat-eaters we must take responsibility for it by learning the whole process.
It makes me very, very grateful to all animals I eat for making my life and health possible. In return, I make it my business to give them a good life. We don't raise our own meat or pork but buy it from local ranchers who follow humane practices. Nothing makes me angrier than the factory farming system, except maybe child abuse. This earth could be a paradise for all with a little adjustment.
12:53 pm
February 22, 2010
Jeanmarie:
I'm not sure where I find the time! It's getting harder and harder to keep up, and someday I won't be able to respond to everyone anymore. Meanwhile, I do my best.
Yes, we owe our lives to the animals we eat, as does every other carnivorous and omnivorous animal on the Earth. We should understand and respect that we are just one part of the cycle of life, of eating and being eaten. I'm glad you've found a way to understand and accept that.
JS
4:36 pm
Thanks for a very informative site! I've heard a claim that people with arthritis should not eat meat, as it exacerbates the arthritic symptoms. I'm wondering if you have any sources that would directly address this issue. I find it very difficult to believe that bone and joint health could be compromised by eating a nutrient-dense, animal-based diet, but I have no sources handy that can explain the science to people who are hearing this. I know at least two people who are insistent on vegetarianism because of their arthritis (women in their 60s), and who use all kinds of animal-protein substitutes like margarines and tofutti spread and soy sausages. My guess is they're making things worse for themselves, but I'd like to explain it more clearly. Thanks!
CS
8:47 pm
Great Article! I'm researching the best diets for improving digestion, weight loss, and increased energy levels! What is your opinion on juicing vegetables, or fruit smoothies? Wich is better? Since plants and vegetables are hard to digest could I drink them instead? Would I then get the benefit without the digestive problems? Thanks again for a great easy to read article!
10:18 pm
February 22, 2010
CJS:
Without some specific mechanism by which meat is supposed to cause arthritis, I can't even begin to debunk that ridiculous claim. Ask whoever's making the claim why it's bad -- and if they can't tell you that, ask them where they heard that.
Finally, keep in mind that many people are simply set in their ways and will never consider changing them, no matter how ridiculous their beliefs. Try your best, but don't be surprised or disappointed by failure. It's their life and their decisions.
Dan:
Eating whole fruit is fine, but I don't like fruit smoothies because they're an easy way to consume soda-like quantities of sugar while pretending you're being healthy. (Regular size Jamba Juice = 400+ calories of sugar. 12 ounce Coke: 140 calories of sugar. Would you slam three cans of Coke?)
Juicing veggies is fine, and it leaves the nutrients intact AFAIK...but there's no need to go overboard. Much like vitamins, more is not always better! And a healthy digestive system is perfectly capable of handling reasonable amounts of vegetable fiber...some amount of which gets fermented into SCFAs like butyric acid, which is a Good Thing.
My opinion: I wouldn't bother juicing unless you really enjoy it and won't eat veggies otherwise...or if you have digestive issues that are exacerbated by vegetable fiber.) Otherwise, just prepare them normally -- whether by themselves or as part of a mixed dish -- chew them well, and enjoy!
The healthiest diet in the long term will be the one that consumes the most nutrient-dense real foods and avoids the most processed foods. (Hint: bread is a heavily processed food, as are all grain products. As I've said many times: "Food doesn't have ingredients. Food is an ingredient." See Eat Like A Predator for more.)
JS
9:01 pm
I think the biggest dietary problem for americans in particular ,but all rich countries, is the volume of food consumed. we are terrible gluttons and on top of that we're lazy. just look around you at the supermarket next time your there, it's staring you in the face.doesn't matter whether your vegan or paleo or anything in between, if you systematically under eat and get a good amount of daily exercise you can expect to be healthy. remember that in paleolithic times huge amounts of energy were spent acquiring food,today we just sit on the sofa and order the next pizza and coke over the internet. the average american eats four times what is needed to maintain health, think of what that means as far as our reliance on agriculture and land use. those rain forests in Brazil are being cleared so you can stuff one more maccas deluxe beef burgher down your fat gullet.
12:47 am
February 22, 2010
Hugo:
Given the shape of the graphs, I have a hard time blaming obesity on sloth and gluttony -- because that hypothesis depends on a massive nationwide moral failure roughly contemporaneous with the Reagan inauguration.
And, lest we forget, both fast food and junk food existed before 1980.
We've been flogging the standard advice ("eat less, move more") for several decades, and it's been a miserable failure. Clearly there's more to the problem.
JS
11:35 am
Evidence of how unsuitable meat is for human digestion is the relationship established by numerous studies between colon cancer and meat-eating. Meat-centered diets are almost always high in fat and low in fibre, resulting in a slow transit time through the colon and allowing toxic wastes to do their damage.
Peter R. Cheeke, professor of Animal Science at Oregon State University, writes,
"Rates of colorectal cancer in various countries are strongly correlated with per capita consumption of red meat and animal fat, and inversely associated with fibre consumption. Even the most dedicated Animal Scientist or meat supporter must be somewhat dismayed by the preponderance of evidence suggesting a role of meat consumption in the etiology of colon cancer."
Moreover, while being digested, meat is known to generate steroid metabolites possessing carcinogenic (cancer-producing) properties. True carnivores move raw meat through their digestive tracts quickly within about three hours. Humans, with their long digestive tracts, take between twelve and eighteen hours to process and digest flesh.
Because the environment of the digestive tract is warm and moist, the meat rots and creates free radicals, unstable, destructive oxygen atoms that can cause cancer, premature aging, and other degenerative conditions. These free radicals are released into the body during the long digestion process.
As research continues, evidence linking meat-eating to other forms of cancer is building up at an alarming rate.
8:44 am
Man I was looking for retard-land forever. Finally found it. Being led by J. Stanton.
Coming to the point, I've rats in my backyard. I'll pay you guys $10 for each rat you eat.
I've got lots of money but only healthy, wise, vegan friends, so help is appreciated.
I'll pay for your children's education if your brains can't afford it.
You get to eat the rats! Your children get education, It's a win win situation!!!! What more can retards want!!!
9:25 am
I'm all for eating meat. But I won't settle for anything less than human meat.
9:41 am
"What qualifies a wolf, raven, hyena, cougar, raccoon, tuna, lion, or any other animal to eat other animals? Because that's what they do..."
Here's what, a lion may kill another lion in fight and there's no policing. A lion may see a sexy lioness and want to get it on with her and if it can, it will.
Here's the thing with humans, I see a tasty person on the street and kill her/him to eat, the police catches me.
I see a hot babe on the street whom I can overpower and fcuk, and I do it, it would be called rape.
In the rest of animal-land, there is nothing like rape or murder.
So quit being a hypocrite, either legalize rape, murder and what not or go vegan. Don't cite examples of carnivores you can't live up to.
And you didn't answer any of the other things I mentioned. Seriously, douchery has limits!
9:09 pm
February 22, 2010
jenna:
What relationship? Vegetarians suffer more bowel cancer than meat-eaters:
Am J Clin Nutr May 2009 vol. 89 no. 5 1620S-1626S
Timothy J Key, Paul N Appleby, Elizabeth A Spencer, Ruth C Travis, Andrew W Roddam, and Naomi E Allen
The incidence rate ratio for colorectal cancer in vegetarians compared with meat eaters was 1.39 (95% CI: 1.01, 1.91).
Go here for more information: Carnosine, Colons, and Cancer
Paul:
Oh no! Whatever shall we do?
C-Dan:
Disagreement is fine, but mudslinging is not welcome. You're a guest in my house, and I expect you to respect that.
Jughead:
How's it taste? If the modern American diet is any indication, it'll be flavored like a mix of Coca-Cola and Cool Ranch Doritos.
C-Dan:
Don't move the goalposts. We're talking about eating other animals, not rape. And I suspect a lot of women aren't willing to let you trivialize their experience by equating it with eating a hamburger.
Furthermore, I've answered your questions: I'm sorry you don't like my answers. Humans have a multi-million year evolutionary history of eating other animals as a significant part of our diet (see this series of articles), and the scientific consensus is that our big brains were made possible by the dense nutrition found in animal fat and meat, and made necessary by the difficulty of obtaining it! (Pigs are perfectly capable of digging roots and tubers.) If you want to go all the way back to veganism, you'll have to go back at least to the Miocene...and a brain smaller than a modern chimpanzee's.
Besides, you still haven't answered my own question from earlier: where are these studies that "prove" vegetarians have higher IQs?
JS
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