Thanks for hugely informative and fascinating discussion

@Stanton: Traditional advice in regards to putting on lean mass is to eat a ton (at least enough so you're getting over maintenance), and, obviously, lift a ton. I'd be interested to read your article when you're ready to write it!

Great unbiased review of a Diet/Lifestyle plan.
Great Website, found your through the Paleo Rodeo.
Keep up the good work.
-kelly

I read the original PHD and I'm mostly through the newest incarnation. I really like the latter, but I DO wish the citations weren't only online.

As for the VLC vs. safe starch debates that seems rampant in paleo circles and forums as of late [and please note, I don't have specific dates or citations for any of this, just my own gut sense]. I suspect that many people who were early adopters of paleolithic style eating had distressed metabolisms, in other words they were fat and diabetic. After all, few but the desperate are going to be interested in what at the time was a highly fringe diet. For that group a VLC eating style probably gave them a host of benefits, and obviously some people still do very well on that for decades. Now that paleo had gone somewhat more mainstream [enough to warrant criticism from major groups 🙂 ] a broader group of people are trying it including the modestly overweight and the lean and athletic.

First, the need for extended VLC eating may play the strongest role for those that have been rendered carb-intolerant by a lifetime of influences creating carb-intolerant gene expression. The presentation by Chris Masterjohn at the AHS 2012 comes to mind.

Secondly, for paleo eaters with a higher intensity workout schedule (cross-fit, P90X, mixed martial arts) those safe starches may be critical to performance. While it is possible for the body to do a heck of a lot of work with minimal carb intakes especially at low levels of intensity, the drive to reach even higher levels of achievement will incline some to "need" safe starches, sometimes a LOT of them.

Third, I have observed that often the most vocal proponents in forums of "carbs aren't bad!" and "you NEED starch!" are young, lean, highly active males. Their activity level may support that need (see reason #2), but I also suspect that they're simply too young to have the effects of poor dietary choices of any type truly affect their physique and health.

Lastly, I suspect that our cultural preference for muscle meats over organ meats creates certain deficiencies in the body. Being VLC on ground beef and some mixed greens probably isn't going to provide your body with what it needs to sustain good health in the long run.

Just my two-cents worth.

Agreed. The PHD is excellent - it feels like paleo without the pseudoscience, basically. The Jaminets tend to have their own perspectives on issues too, which is nice because you know you're not buying into dogma.

@Stanton: Agreed. Optimization is definitely required for bodybuilders, but just eating a paleo/PHD type diet and making sure to get enough protein should do wonders. If you want to go that extra step, Layne Norton recommends taking protein in several meals throughout the day (up to 50g per meal). I haven't dug into the research of what is actually required to get the body in an anabolic state besides the obvious intake of protein, so I'm not too solid on specifics.

J i have just begun trying out adding a few grams of dextrose to my protein shakes on the apex predator diet (currently in the middle phase).

just wondering if the suggestion was to do this in all shakes for a day or just those around workouts?

currently this past week i have added 5g dextrose to my pre and post workout shakes.

considering doing it with every shake but concerned this will elevate my dextrose intake over 30g a day without looking at veggies and stuff like that.

also did you hit rampage days with only paleo foods? how did you manage on that, this is the hardest part for me: to get enough carbs in to hit the suggested target on those days.

thanks for that, from tomorrow i will be doing it with every shake.
the blend shakes i use are very low in carbs but i use a UK only company so no use to you!

the last week i've experienced better results so this refinement will hopefully help too.

i've actually gained considerable muscle mass while dropping fat, just lucky like that i suppose, but upper back and shoulders are the primary areas, upper back was an area i just did not train as hard as previously so this is probably why.

worked out that my evening meals often work out around 250g protein and high in fat too, not as high as 250g admittedly, but i sleep so well on this diet too, which is odd for me.
although i don't intend doing this forever i think the evening high fat/protein meals will stay in some format moving forward.
sadly i don't have the freedom of being able to hit the gym twice a day even on weekends 🙁
my waist is now what it was when i got married and was hitting crossfit 5 days a week, but i'm now over a stone and a half heavier.
i don't know how much fat i've lost but only my waistline has got smaller, so it's definitely working.

plus it has stopped me constantly tinkering with my diet, which for me is a nice mental relief. i don't fret about it in the way some do, but i struggle to decide what to stick to for a long enough time to see results.
anyway, thanks for the answer J hope everything is going good for you 🙂